Record Chaser

[Claire]

@AdmiralPiet I think feeling that Claire's reaction might be a bit too composed is fair. And I think you're also right that people react very differetly in traumatic situations like this. But I have probably a bias toward keeping characters in a state where they still feel like they are not acting on fear driven instinct alone. I just find that more interesting to write about? Also, I might be reluctant to go too big on the emotions in the first chapter? Better writers than me can probably handke that just fine, but I'm not sure I could write a compelling sense of escalation if I wrote an extremely strong emotional moment in the opening chapter.

I'm a bit surprised by what you're saying about not liking Mark. It reads to me like you feel like you're supposed to like him, but don't? I can only say: You're not supposed to like the serial rapist antagonist of the story.

I think with a villain like Mark, the more relevant question to me is whether you find him interesting, not like him. If you love to hate a character like him that's perfect too. And when I see how deeply you are looking into his character already, it feels to me like some part of you is invested already. I at least can't remember any other comment from you where you went into such detail talking about the psychology of a character.

I'm very curious to see what you'll think about chapter 3. That is the chapter that goes deep into the characters. Let me know what you think of Mark after you read it.

Also, did you read the updated versions of chapters 1 and 2 or the old ones? I think when you told me you copied them to your Kindle, I hadn't updated them yet.

Thank you for the detailed feedback on the first two chapters. I always like it when you go into deep dive mode for your comments.

edit:

...
On of the first things that came to mind was that Claire seemed to react a bit too calm for the situation. (It is odd to talk about Claire with Claire btw.)
...

Yeah, I get that. I think I've shared this before, but I named myself Claire back on RavishU when I registered there because I wanted to post the first chapter of Record Chaser. But I had no idea what to name myself, so I just chose the name of the protagonist of the story I was about to post. And then I stuck with it. I never had any real attachment to the name before other than finding it pretty when I was looking for a name for my protagonist. In hindsight, choosing a different name might have been better, but now it has become part of my identity here.


@Lucius Oh, feel free to name a character Claire in your stories. I really don't mind. I might mock you relentlessly about it because it's fun. But in all seriousness, it wouldn't bother me.

[Lucius]

@Lucius Oh, feel free to name a character Claire in your stories. I really don't mind. I might mock you relentlessly about it because it's fun. But in all seriousness, it wouldn't bother me.

'Claire, let's talk about Claire... No, not about the Record Chaser Claire and not about you. That's about the Claire from London running naked through the Pskov Oblast swamps...' Nah, it doesn't work.

[AdmiralPiet]

@AdmiralPiet I think feeling that Claire's reaction might be a bit too composed is fair. And I think you're also right that people react very differetly in traumatic situations like this. But I have probably a bias toward keeping characters in a state where they still feel like they are not acting on fear driven instinct alone. I just find that more interesting to write about? Also, I might be reluctant to go too big on the emotions in the first chapter? Better writers than me can probably handke that just fine, but I'm not sure I could write a compelling sense of escalation if I wrote an extremely strong emotional moment in the opening chapter.

I can see where you are coming from.
Writing from Claires perspective while she was in a fight-or-flight adrenaline fueled panic would not work.

However: Does a story always need a smooth escalation curve/ramp up?
A character could have a quick outburst to calm down again afterwards.

I'm a bit surprised by what you're saying about not liking Mark. It reads to me like you feel like you're supposed to like him, but don't? I can only say: You're not supposed to like the serial rapist antagonist of the story.

I think with a villain like Mark, the more relevant question to me is whether you find him interesting, not like him. If you love to hate a character like him that's perfect too. And when I see how deeply you are looking into his character already, it feels to me like some part of you is invested already. I at least can't remember any other comment from you where you went into such detail talking about the psychology of a character.

I guess my wording was off. I tried to clarifiy a bit with the "not liking him as a character"
There are a Million different ways to write an antagonist. Some are bland, just evil mustache twirling types, others are interesting, have depths, are highly skilled/intelligent, or at least some cool one liners.
Some, like Joffrey Baratheon get under your skin with how horrible they are.

My thing with Mark is not that he is a bad person but that he kinda annoys me a bit when reading. He is the " I beat my wife but I never missed church, I am a good Christian." type of guy.
Comes accross as a weasel. Thats why I wrote: "Wonder if my perspective will change?" He will stay a villian, asshole and a bad guy, but maybe there are facets to him that make him less anoying or even interesting as a character.

If I compare him to some characters I wrote:
Harold Miller. I almost wrote him into a caricature to be anoying and unlikable, but it only worked because of the flash fiction format. That forced me to hammer his pathetic existence home for lack of time (or words rather) but I don't think he would be a good antagonist for anything that went on longer.

Freya and Caelyn are much simpler characters. They need no self-justification, because there is no guilt. The world they are living in works by the right of the stronger. Caelyn is a bit more complex, but more because she is less stable/predictable then Freya.

Ilduara is on a revenge trip. She feels what she did was justice and has no remorse.

As for Alana: Like I said, she is not consistent as she was developed and retconned as the RPG progressed, and it was quite a while ago.
Her care for a victim was also a way to make herself feel better. But it had more to do with control.
She did not have a split personality outright, but a darker part of herself that she was in conflict with.
Stoping herself when the job was done, even though she would have liked to continue was a way for her to show that she was in control over her inner monster.
But she admitted to her sadism and deeds, and stood by them.

Tangent: Maybe I should search for some of the old stand alone stories of her and post it here. Would have to ask a friend if she would be ok with me publishing that.

All that said: He is not so annoying that I wouldn't want to read the story anymore.

I'm very curious to see what you'll think about chapter 3. That is the chapter that goes deep into the characters. Let me know what you think of Mark after you read it.

Also, did you read the updated versions of chapters 1 and 2 or the old ones? I think when you told me you copied them to your Kindle, I hadn't updated them yet.

I really don't know. I think I uploaded some days ago. So likely the older version.

Thank you for the detailed feedback on the first two chapters. I always like it when you go into deep dive mode for your comments.

[Claire]

However: Does a story always need a smooth escalation curve/ramp up?
A character could have a quick outburst to calm down again afterwards.

No, and I would say this story doesn't have a linear escalation curve, but tension rises and falls all the time. And that quick outburst and calming down afterwards is exactly what you get in chapter 1 from Claire. I just thought you were looking for something bigger, something with a bigger, lasting emotional impact.

He is the " I beat my wife but I never missed church, I am a good Christian." type of guy.

That's a fascinating read of Mark I haven't heard before. Very cool. Never even occurred to me to interpret his behavior in the first two chapters like that. I wonder whether that will change for you.

I find Mark deeply interesting and disturbing as a character. Now I wonder whether I would still think that if I interpreted his behavior like you do. Keep me up to date how your view of him develops. I'm always fascinated when a reader takes away something completely different from what I intended!

[RapeU]

I think Mark actually views himself as the lesser of two evils. Example: there are people who rape women and kill them or inflict significant physical harm on them. In his view chances are a woman he targets will get raped eventually by someone else anyway. And it's better that he do it versus a guy who will end up killing her or physically abusing her more than they need to.

I wouldn't go so far to say he's a Christian who goes to Sunday morning church. And if he ever did go to a church it would be to scope out the women as potential victims instead of going there to participate in worship.

*sigh*

I just spit out a really great story idea but I'm not interested in writing a Mark story, at least not for a while.

[AdmiralPiet]

No, and I would say this story doesn't have a linear escalation curve, but tension rises and falls all the time. And that quick outburst and calming down afterwards is exactly what you get in chapter 1 from Claire. I just thought you were looking for something bigger, something with a bigger, lasting emotional impact.

I think by now you know I am more about the stuff that "actually"happens, than the emotional stuff inside. But even then I have to say it is odd to never mention the emotional state of characters at all, especially your protagonist.

And yes: She does have a quick outburst.
I just wanted to say she seemed overall to calm and collected, but then much of that can be explained.
Let's not linger on that too much. Would this be a part of a longer story, a novel perhaps I would not even mention it I think.
It is not a huge issue.

And I thought her reactions in the next two chapters to be more fitting the story.
Someone being stunned and trying to process the situation, kinda dazed, that is something I could see happening in such a situation, even during his final preparations.

That's a fascinating read of Mark I haven't heard before. Very cool. Never even occurred to me to interpret his behavior in the first two chapters like that. I wonder whether that will change for you.

I think Mark actually views himself as the lesser of two evils. Example: there are people who rape women and kill them or inflict significant physical harm on them. In his view chances are a woman he targets will get raped eventually by someone else anyway. And it's better that he do it versus a guy who will end up killing her or physically abusing her more than they need to.

I wouldn't go so far to say he's a Christian who goes to Sunday morning church. And if he ever did go to a church it would be to scope out the women as potential victims instead of going there to participate in worship.

I did not mean to imply that Mark is a churchgoer, or a very upstanding guy besides his rape endeavours.
What I menat was the principle:
"Yes I beat my wife, but I never miss church --> Good Christian"
"Yes I did hurt you, but I once did you a favour --> Good guy"
"Yes I rape women, but I have my rules --> Not that bad"

I don't like that, and would like people to call me out if I engage in such behaviour.
Coupled with his heartless remarks about how hard the rapist has it for managing the logistics...
It is very hard to put into words what the exact problem for me is. Like I said: he annoys me a bit.
His 5 Rules are a weak defence, a fig leaf.

Also: RapeU's read on him seeing himself as the lesser of two evils is flawed.
If he really thinks she will get raped by someone else anyway: Him being there first would not change that. The other guy is still out there serching for a victim. Her being raped once before does not prevent her from being raped again.
It is not that her spares her the bad rapist. He gives her the "good" rapist before the bad.
That makes it worse for me. I don't like people trying to explain their reasoning with stuff that makes no sense.

I find Mark deeply interesting and disturbing as a character. Now I wonder whether I would still think that if I interpreted his behavior like you do. Keep me up to date how your view of him develops. I'm always fascinated when a reader takes away something completely different from what I intended!

The perspective did change a bit in Chapter 3.
Some remarks seem to hint at a disconnect with reality. Not sure yet if that is part of the persona he puts on or if he genuinely lacks the empathy. His guilt suggest the former...
In any case: It adds facets to him that make him more interesting to read.

As for the internet discussion happening:
Some years ago I might have said you overdid it a bit. But the dumb takes I have seen in the last few years, the "arguments" some people proposed while being serious about it...
That duscussion would actually be quite ok.

The Lawyer subgroup seemed a bit odd, but I liked the arguments. That is what real lawyers do.
It might seem very heartless, inhumane even, but I get why it has to be that way.
I would rather lawyers discuss to death what "lasting harm" means, than have people sentenced for it because the term was fuzzy.

Maybe I am fucked up too, but I think there are quite a few discussions in those rules

[Claire]

But even then I have to say it is odd to never mention the emotional state of characters at all, especially your protagonist.

Hmm, I think her emotional state goes through a clear progression throughout the chapter that is both explicitly stated as well as shown in her behaviour:

dazed confusion - unease because something feels off - full blown panic - deliberate calm wrestling with fear

I will admit that I could have lingered on the panic moment and that might have given it more weight. That didn't feel important to me, but I can see why other writers might spend more time on that. But to say that her emotional state is never mentioned, I think is just wrong.

I did not mean to imply that Mark is a churchgoer, or a very upstanding guy besides his rape endeavours.
What I menat was the principle:

I got that. The principle was what I was commenting on, not the church example. I could elaborate on that further, but I would like to see you come to your own conclusions and see where your read of the character leads you. I think it would be a shame if I clarified the intent behind the character and "corrected" your current interpretation of him.

Also: RapeU's read on him seeing himself as the lesser of two evils is flawed.
If he really thinks she will get raped by someone else anyway: Him being there first would not change that. The other guy is still out there serching for a victim. Her being raped once before does not prevent her from being raped again.
It is not that her spares her the bad rapist. He gives her the "good" rapist before the bad.
That makes it worse for me. I don't like people trying to explain their reasoning with stuff that makes no sense.

Without wanting to spoil you: @RapeU was implicitly referencing a later chapter. Ignore that for now. I think you will arrive at a different conclusion once you get to that chapter yourself.

As for the internet discussion happening:
Some years ago I might have said you overdid it a bit. But the dumb takes I have seen in the last few years, the "arguments" some people proposed while being serious about it...
That duscussion would actually be quite ok

I wrote that in October 2024 and I agree that since then internet discourse has not gotten better. If such a proposal would actually go viral on reddit or whatever, I could see the discussion evolving like that. And if it gets big enough, I'd expect some philosophy YouTuber like Alex O'Connor to make a video about it to illustrate different schools of moral theory in philosophy by applying them to these ideas. I think especially online debate circles would have no problem at all taking this at face value and discussing it "seriously". And it would probably generate views. :/

[AdmiralPiet]

Hmm, I think her emotional state goes through a clear progression throughout the chapter that is both explicitly stated as well as shown in her behaviour:

dazed confusion - unease because something feels off - full blown panic - deliberate calm wrestling with fear

I will admit that I could have lingered on the panic moment and that might have given it more weight. That didn't feel important to me, but I can see why other writers might spend more time on that. But to say that her emotional state is never mentioned, I think is just wrong.

Sorry for the confusion. Two things got mixed up there.

I wanted to state that I care more about the physical stuff, less about the mental. But even I would find it odd to leave the emotional state out. This was not in reference to your story but a general statement of my views.

Yes. Claire shows progression, has an outburst and it is well described and even though I found her reaction a bit too subdued/too calm on first read, the more I think about it the more I amend my original view.

But as I said: It is only a minor point of critique.

[Claire]

I gave chapter 3 the same editing treatment as chapters 1 and 2. But the chapter held up very well overall. For the first time, I actually added more words than I removed, increasing the word count from 3674 to 3700 words.

Beyond the usual improvements, I added some details for continuity that I introduced later, like the name of the bar Claire went to. But the biggest change I made was almost completely rewriting one major paragraph. I wanted to do that ever since I read @JTCK's feedback comment for chapter 8.

So I changed:

He decided to finally reduce the temperature in the room a little and take another bathroom break, not that he needed one. He knew that he should ask Claire again about the temperature but he couldn’t bring himself to do it. He would rape her anyway so it was okay if he let the mask slip for a moment, right? I mean, why kick her when she’s down already. He knew that she wouldn’t mind if he lowered the temperature a bit. She hadn’t been cold for a moment since she had woken up and once he was on top of her, thrusting into her, there was just no chance that she might get cold.

into:

He decided to finally reduce the temperature in the room a little and take another bathroom break, not that he needed one. He knew he should ask Claire about the temperature again, even though he was all too aware she didn’t care about that at all. Still, he should put on the mask of civility again. Every instance of mock-courtesy was a calculated act of cruelty trivializing her suffering. It was all part of the act. But seeing her lying there, quietly despairing, he couldn’t bring himself to do it. He just couldn’t hurt her further with another out of place remark.

He would rape her anyway. So it was okay if he let the mask slip for a moment, right? Why kick her when she was down already? He could allow himself that moment of compassion, of weakness. And besides, once he was on top of her, thrusting into her, there was no chance in hell she’d feel cold no matter what the thermostat said!

And yes, I know that this loses the subtlety of the original. But I see a reoccuring misunderstanding of readers thinking Mark is trying to be kind when he acts polite instead of interpreting it as deliberate cruelty on his part that doesn't come naturally to him. This paragraph was always the moment meant to clarify that his casual remarks that triviliaze her suffering is him performing a role to compartmmentalize his guilt, not him being delusional and thinking he's doing something good.

[AdmiralPiet]

Some remarks seem to hint at a disconnect with reality. Not sure yet if that is part of the persona he puts on or if he genuinely lacks the empathy. His guilt suggest the former...

And yes, I know that this loses the subtlety of the original. But I see a reoccuring misunderstanding of readers thinking Mark is trying to be kind when he acts polite instead of interpreting it as deliberate cruelty on his part that doesn't come naturally to him. This paragraph was always the moment meant to clarify that his casual remarks that triviliaze her suffering is him performing a role to compartmmentalize his guilt, not him being delusional and thinking he's doing something good.

Ok, then that is cleared up then