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Dance of the Sun Goddess

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Lucius
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Re: Dance of the Sun Goddess

Post by Lucius »

Vela Nanashi wrote: Fri Jun 06, 2025 12:25 am You could if you like edit in some icb blocks explaining those words and places making it educational too:

He sat in his
fiacres

then put a blurb here about what that is and its history and maybe link to more information

smoking his
cigarette

a product of tobacco that many cultures used to burn and inhale the smoke of to relax and get some extra clarity of mind and pleasure, they sometimes had a filter and was usually a white cylinder of paper held between index and middle finger or in lips, and sometimes placed in a long narrow decoratibe tube holder for style and to get the ember of fire away from flammable hair and clothes

.

You can quote the post to see how it works if you want :)
I see. I might give it a try with another story.
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chloevee
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Re: Dance of the Sun Goddess

Post by chloevee »

History and consent stories are usually not my cup of tea, but I enjoyed this one. It was beautifully written and surprisingly sweet.

I agree with @Claire that for someone ignorant of the history, a lot of the story was lost. Luckily I share @Vela Nanashi's habit of skimming over things I don't get, so I could still enjoy the story.

I liked both Jo and Spally as you portrayed them, and their contrasting perspectives were entertaining--and impressively done.

This part cracked me up:
Lucius wrote: Sat May 31, 2025 10:17 pm But wasn't having the tight bum that wiggled at least 120 times per minute more important and admirable than having white skin?
Would that today's racists were so polite and open-minded!
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Lucius
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Re: Dance of the Sun Goddess

Post by Lucius »

chloevee wrote: Sun Jul 06, 2025 7:46 am History and consent stories are usually not my cup of tea, but I enjoyed this one. It was beautifully written and surprisingly sweet.
That was some strangely flavoured oolong tea I brewed, I know. :) Glad you've liked it!
chloevee wrote: Sun Jul 06, 2025 7:46 amI agree with @Claire that for someone ignorant of the history, a lot of the story was lost. Luckily I share @Vela Nanashi's habit of skimming over things I don't get, so I could still enjoy the story.

I liked both Jo and Spally as you portrayed them, and their contrasting perspectives were entertaining--and impressively done.
Good to know! It took a lot of work to make them (remotely) believable, and I'd like to reuse Spally and Jo later. I tried to keep their narration in character and their expressions appropriate -- say, 'death warmed over' was first attested in 1931, but I think four years here and there is acceptable. :)

Getting 1927 Paris right was another thing -- Spally almost ejaculates prematurely while being driven along the Avenue Ferdinand Ier de Roumanie which existed for 10 years only, from earlier in 1927 to 1937 when the Trocadéro district was rearranged.
chloevee wrote: Sun Jul 06, 2025 7:46 amThis part cracked me up:
Lucius wrote: Sat May 31, 2025 10:17 pm But wasn't having the tight bum that wiggled at least 120 times per minute more important and admirable than having white skin?
Would that today's racists were so polite and open-minded!
:D
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Claire
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Re: Dance of the Sun Goddess

Post by Claire »

Ok, I made the decision to come back bere and to push through. And I have to say, once I got through the exposition heavy opening, it got easier to follow what was actually happening. I also liked how you leaned a bit more into the conversation between Spally and Jo after the first round of sex. I really wish you had given us more of that earlier in the story. And as with other stories of yours, this reads to me like the opening to a longer tale, like the introduction to the setting and main characters before the actual plot gets going. I could see this go into several different directions. I'm not sure whether this would be historically accurate, but Spally getting into trouble for having slept with a black woman could be one fun development I could see coming out of this. But if you were to spin this into a longer narrative, any idea what would be the inciting incident that gets the events rolling? I really would like to see how you write a story with a conflict to resolve.

I think it's a shame that @HistBuff never commented on this.
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Lucius
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Re: Dance of the Sun Goddess

Post by Lucius »

Claire wrote: Thu Aug 28, 2025 1:15 pm Ok, I made the decision to come back bere and to push through. And I have to say, once I got through the exposition heavy opening, it got easier to follow what was actually happening.

Happy to know that!

Do you think the opening should be made lighter, i.e. shorter?
Claire wrote: Thu Aug 28, 2025 1:15 pmI also liked how you leaned a bit more into the conversation between Spally and Jo after the first round of sex. I really wish you had given us more of that earlier in the story. And as with other stories of yours, this reads to me like the opening to a longer tale, like the introduction to the setting and main characters before the actual plot gets going.
I hope the sex was good too. :geek:
Claire wrote: Thu Aug 28, 2025 1:15 pmI could see this go into several different directions. I'm not sure whether this would be historically accurate, but Spally getting into trouble for having slept with a black woman could be one fun development I could see coming out of this. But if you were to spin this into a longer narrative, any idea what would be the inciting incident that gets the events rolling?
Getting in trouble -- no, not really, back then the 'a dead girl or a live boy' standard for establishment figures reigned in the UK.

Prince George having an affair with Florence Mills wasn't much.

Writing love letters to boys WAS.

Okay, let's see... Spally and Josephine getting into a fight with Americans from Dixie, all of them ending up in a police station, is a possibility. But then we lose sexy time. :cry:

A longer story? RL constrains us with Josephine, so she can get beaten by her 'husband'-manager and swear off prolonging her career of dancer-cum-courtesan at the Folies. Learning about the spectacular death of Isadora Duncan -- she has been dead for a few hours by the time Spally meets Josephine, her death'll make the morning papers -- can push Josephine to rethink certain aspects of her art and to consider what she wants to do when the Folies season ends.

Spally is fictional, but he has no reason to change at the moment, hence he's less interesting. Spally collects women, and that's it.
Claire wrote: Thu Aug 28, 2025 1:15 pmI really would like to see how you write a story with a conflict to resolve.
Right, Josephine's and Spally's conflicts are all internal -- and pretty much irresolvable. They'll have to step away from their hedonistic pursuits and make a stand against the swastika. It'll require some serious inner struggle. But it'll happen twelve years later.

Conflict? We'll see.
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Re: Dance of the Sun Goddess

Post by Claire »

Lucius wrote: Thu Aug 28, 2025 8:12 pm Do you think the opening should be made lighter, i.e. shorter?
Yes, but length is not the main issue, it depends on what you do with... ok, I'll stop. But seriously... First, I would in general not start with that much exposition, at least not in a short story. The short length of the story alone tells me already that this can't all be important. And since I naturally have no reason to care yet about Spally or anybody else, why should I care about all this surrounding information? And then it is just overkill in terms of details. I did something interesting to confirm a suspicion I had. I suspected that you name dropped at least something like 20 people in what I would consider the introduction to the story:
► Show Spoiler
I gave that excerpt to chatGPT and asked it to list all named people to see whether I was right. And I have not checked whether the list it created is complete or maybe confuses some characters, but here is what it spit out:
  • Spally (the tenth Duke of Evesham; formerly the Marquess of Spalding, "the Duke")
  • Jules (the chauffeur)
  • Josephine Baker ("Josephine", "Jo")
  • Lila Nicolska ("La Nicolska")
  • Sir William Cossington
  • Henry VII
  • Eleanor Peever
  • Roger, Bishop of Salisbury
  • King Stephen
  • Maud of Ramsbury
  • Edith George
  • Lady Alice (Duchess of Evesham)
  • Lord Pangbourne
  • Margaret Morris
  • George V
  • Queen Mary
  • Princess Victoria ("Toria")
  • "Bertie" (the Prince of Wales)
  • Lord John
  • Carter (Spally’s factotum)
  • Jimmy Walker
  • Francis Picabia
  • Jean Cocteau
  • Louis Aragon
  • Nancy Cunard
  • Harry Crosby
  • Caresse Crosby
  • "Lucky Lindy" (Charles Lindbergh)
  • Sacco and Vanzetti (Nicola Sacco; Bartolomeo Vanzetti)
  • George Antheil
  • Boski (Antheil’s Hungarian wife)
  • Ambassador Rakovsky
  • Comte Armand de La Someplace
  • Count Nardini
  • Benito Mussolini
  • Sadilleck (the butcher)
  • Colette
  • Pepito ("Pepi"; Josephine’s manager/lover)
  • The Princess of Wales (unnamed; referenced by title)
I think these are 39 people. That excerpt is (according to wordcounter.net) 2817 words long. That means you throw a new character at the reader roughly every ~72 words. And ultimately, except for 2, they are all irrelevant. And throughout this entire introduction, I get that Jo and Spally will have sex, but I'm constantly wondering what else will be relevant. And I think the honest answer is: nothing.

For example, before I finished the story, I would have bet that the central conflict that the story revolves around will be the rivalry between Josephine and Lila Nicolska and that Spally will get caught in the middle of this as he has an affair with both of them at the same time. The story gives me all this characterization for Lila the diva: speaks french, daughter of a general, hates Josephine, has a temper, classically trained, ballet dancer, green eyes. My brain that's looking for meaning thinks she must be important... and then she's just not.

And don't get me wrong, not every named character needs to play a major role in the story. But if I were to name drop Jules the chauffeur, then the story would include a shown, not told, interaction between him and Spally. And I would use that to communicate to the reader how Spally treats him for example. Does he look down on him? Are they friends? What's their banter like if there is any? Maybe Spally asks him for advice on how to impress Josephine, thus communicating to the reader that getting her to come with him is his goal and that this is what the story is about? In the text as it is now, it feels like Jules is mentioned because realistically there would be a chauffeur. So it's there for authenticity, which is good, but it's authenticity without meaning. And the sheer volume of inclusions like that turns all those carefully and lovingly crafted details into... Let me put it like this. Either, this flood of information overwhelms the reader trying to make sense of it all like it did for me, or it becomes white noise just rushing past the reader like it did for Vela and Chloe.

And I get that this is partially on me. I have a hard time just skimming through a section like this and telling myself that 90% is not important anyway, so if I don't follow all of it, it's not that bad. @Vela Nanashi and @chloevee are both clearly better than me when it comes to just rolling with it and enjoying the sexy time that ultimately follows even if they don't fully understand how they got there. That is a skill I clearly lack. But in general, even if readers can do that, I think you don't want them to do that.

So I guess my recommendation would be:
  • Less exposition
  • Give me exposition after you made me care about what the exposition is informing me about
  • Reduce the name density (or more general: reference density) drastically.
Lucius wrote: Thu Aug 28, 2025 8:12 pm I hope the sex was good too. :geek:
Yes, but I felt a bit mentally drained when I got there.
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Re: Dance of the Sun Goddess

Post by Vela Nanashi »

Well I am not sure if this has as much name density as silmarillion or less or more. I was not really confused about the names, I could tell most would not feature in the story, and I know nobles can talk names gor hours as if it matters to most folks, that he knows his driver's name does tell me he is not totally horrible though, some nobles see the common folk like driver, butler, maid, not caring for names.
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