Writing and Reading Rape Fantasy Stories - The Ethical Implications

[Claire]

Rape is more similar to torture in that it purely does harm. Even then, torture may arguably be a necessary evil in some contexts and the torturer may not enjoy it.

I think we are much more willing to view torture in a more ambiguous light. Let's forget about people who would see torture as an appropriate form of punishment in the judicial system. But you see it also in fiction. Think of the torture scenes in The Last of Us or Taken, a father torturing one of the men responsible for kidnapping his daughter. We are in general totally fine with depictions like that.

I'm hard-pressed to think of a plot where rape could be even weakly justifiable to a general audience.

Me too. Maybe you'd have to lean very deeply into "She deserved it!"-territory or show a scene that is technically rape but very non-violent in its depiction. But I guess that would speak more to people trying to argue that it wasn't rape in the first place than people saying rape was justified.

I couldn't agree more. For my part, I do prefer stories where the victim enjoys it to some extent. But I tend to enjoy stories less when the rape victim eventually decides they want it, and among other things, and that is part of what can ruin them for me.

Personally, I just got a bit tired of the forced orgasm trope in rape fantasy when I read stories on RavishU before I registered there. I think I get why people like it. It feeds into the power fantasy of total domination. But in most stories it simply didn't feel earned to me. And if it doesn't feel earned, it quickly breaks my immersion.

[Vela Nanashi]

I can imagine a scenario where rape might be not absolutely evil. Say some bitch kills your child and wife, you see her do it, you capture her and it is too late, now you decide not to kill her but you use her to replace a tiny bit of what was lost. Not saying that is good, still evil, by any stretch of the imagination, but it is paying recompence for what she took, and by the old laws her life is forfeight. Not sure what you others think.

[AdmiralPiet]

I can imagine a scenario where rape might be not absolutely evil. Say some bitch kills your child and wife, you see her do it, you capture her and it is too late, now you decide not to kill her but you use her to replace a tiny bit of what was lost. Not saying that is good, still evil, by any stretch of the imagination, but it is paying recompence for what she took, and by the old laws her life is forfeight. Not sure what you others think.

Even more relatable as a "less evil" rape scenario: Revenge for a rape
For example: Some guy rapes a girl, and her father, blind with rage makes him feel as she must have felt.
Or the victims themselves take revenge, take back control.

Still, evil and also extrajudiciary punishment, but somewhat understandable.
For some not even understandable, but justified.

I could also imagine a scenario set in the ancient world.
There was a time when you knocked a tooth out and lost a tooth in recompense.
People living in those times would maybe see a rapist sentenced to endure the same not as evil, but as justice.

[Lucius]

So I guess my question is: Is there something particular about sexual violence that makes us treat it with more care in fiction even compared to crimes that might be objectively worse like mass murder? Or is the problem actually that fiction has desensitized us to physical violence and killing far more than it ever should have?

The 'fate worse than death' thing is buried somewhere in the cultural code still, perhaps?

I'm hard-pressed to think of a plot where rape could be even weakly justifiable to a general audience.

I think we're past the time when rape could be played for laughs in a work of art.

So... perhaps secret policemen capture a couple of freedom fighters and present one of the prisoners with an ultimatum -- rape the other, who's for this or that reason incapable of giving consent, and the fuckee goes free. Refuse -- and die together.

Twisted mind, have I?

[Claire]

I can imagine a scenario where rape might be not absolutely evil. Say some bitch kills your child and wife, you see her do it, you capture her and it is too late, now you decide not to kill her but you use her to replace a tiny bit of what was lost. Not saying that is good, still evil, by any stretch of the imagination, but it is paying recompence for what she took, and by the old laws her life is forfeight. Not sure what you others think.

I have no problem to come up with situations where I understand why someone might want to rape someone. Revenge certainly is a reason. But as you pointed out, it is not seen as morally justifiable like killing someone in self-defense. It is so easy to come up with scenarios where stealing, hurting someone physically, killing is considered morally okay or even good. But for rape it simply doesn't work.

Twisted mind, have I?

You're so cute. <3

[skuttrusk]

I think killing and torture are sometimes "justified" as having some kind of greater purpose, whereas rape is just cruelty and it clearly gives some kind of perverse satisfaction or pleasure to the rapist. So it's sort of nastier. And the sexual component makes it ickier, it gives people troublesome mixed feelings.

I don't know if "glorifying" rape by eroticising it is worse than glorifying war by making it exciting, but it certainly seems to be more taboo. Although there's still a certain amount of it in mainstream media, where rape victims are most usually shown as attractive and rape scenes are fairly often depicted with more detail and relish than is strictly required by the drama. I find this hypocritical, but I also enjoy seeing beautiful actresses play at being raped (and I'd like to see more) so I'm conflicted here.

[Claire]

Although there's still a certain amount of it in mainstream media, where rape victims are most usually shown as attractive and rape scenes are fairly often depicted with more detail and relish than is strictly required by the drama.

Amd do you think they choose attractive actresses to play rape victims because they want to make the scene more attractive in a sense or is this just an extension of the general trend that actors and actresses are more often than not above average when it comes to attractiveness? I could see it being the latter. They almost always prefer the more attractive actress, hence the rape victim also ends up being attractive.

[skuttrusk]

Jodie Foster said there was a big discussion about whether she was attractive enough to play the rape victim in The Accused, "and so the casting process became a matter of 'who would you like to rape?'"

That was decades back but I don't see that anything's changed. There's no shortage of character actresses who don't radiate glamour, Hollywood just likes its rapes to be enjoyable for the audience. "Who wants to see an ugly girl get raped?" is the philosophy.

[Shocker]

Jodie Foster said there was a big discussion about whether she was attractive enough to play the rape victim in The Accused, "and so the casting process became a matter of 'who would you like to rape?'"

That was decades back but I don't see that anything's changed. There's no shortage of character actresses who don't radiate glamour, Hollywood just likes its rapes to be enjoyable for the audience. "Who wants to see an ugly girl get raped?" is the philosophy.

Originally Kelly McGillis was intended to be the victim, but she declined due to the fact that she had been the real life victim of rape. When it comes to rape in Hollywood, meanwhile outside of Weinstein’s office, they either go for raunchy hard sex with questionable consent, which leads to the very hit actors being cast. Or they are going for the shock value, here I think the appearance is less of an issue, yet they still need strong actors. And to be a successful actor in Hollywood, looks come into play, the number of female character actors I can recall at the drop of a head, can be counted on one hand.

[skuttrusk]

There is no shortage of plain jane actresses who need the work and might even be flattered to be asked to do a rape scene LOL

There is certainly a difficulty when it's a starring role - the filmmakers have to choose an established star and those are mostly gorgeous. When it's a smaller role, just a rape cameo so to speak, they STILL cast beautiful victims even though they don't have to, sometimes even selecting models rather than actresses. Because they want us to enjoy seeing a pretty girl get fake-raped.

In The Accused, the way the rape is filmed is very interesting: the camera operator is careful to make sure Jodie's nipple is visible in the corner of frame, even though it could easily be excluded or left to slip in and out of view. The film might be a serious expose as she hoped, but it's ALSO a sexy rape and abuse show for the entertainment of anyone who enjoys female humiliation.